Saying Ancient Gnosticism was Anti-Judaism is not Anti-Semitism

Poor Kenoma_ru was banned from Palm Tree Garden for insisting that Gnosticism is anti-Judaic. The sycophants textually lynched him with cries of Anti-Judaism = Anti-Semitism 100% of the time! No exceptions! Yeesh...

If Anti-Judaism were Anti-Semitism, then Ancient Gnosticism itself would be called Anti-Semitic, you stupid morons!

Anti-Judaism is no more a racist stance than being opposed to Islam is (which I am).

Now, really, in the modern context, who cares? Christianity and Islam are the big Daddys. I feel there's way too much sensitivity surrounding this rather no-brainer issue. Okay, the Jews have suffered terribly thru history. It's tragic. But that's modern history. We're talking about the Facts of an ancient Religion.

The Gnostic Mythos has as the central theme the corruption of the God of Abraham! He's an Abortion, described as a literal abortion! And He tries to rape Eve and stuff! Come on, people..

As I Have stated in a previous posting, Palm Tree Garden, unfortunately, as a Political Actor (an actual term in global politics) fulfills a particular role. The Sanitized version of the history of Ancient Gnosticism, and a sanitized, censored face to Modern manifestations of Gnosticism and Gnostic Types of Thought.

Look - be at least truthful enough to admit that Ancient Gnosticism was Anti-Judaism/Judaic/Jehovah/Yahweh/Yaldabaoth, even if your own modern individual "Way" may not be.

The next part has been added, 21/05/07...it is the comments to this blogpost, where Spark and I have a debate over the issue of what constitutes anti-semitism and what doesn't; somewhat of a digression from the original purpose of the blogpost, but I figured I'd just copy & paste them here rather than devote an entire new blogpost to it (even though I'm well proud that I trounced him in this little battle of ours).

I wish to make all future posts of my Blog overwhelmingly adhering to the charter of my Blog (see title of blog and description of me). Maybe I will change my mind and post it as a new Blogpost anyways >:)

NOTE: Spark's second post goes on for ages but the the real meat of the discussion comes after it. you can always skip his blathering and come back to it later. Most of his "Long Post" was in reference to the premise of the original blogpost, rather than the general argument we got into afterwards regarding what is and what isn't anti-semitism. OKAY...here it is. Enjoy :)

Sparkwidget:

Hey Rheggie -"Anti-Judaism is no more a racist stance than being opposed to Islam is (which I am)."

THAT is the definition of anti-semitism. Jews and Arabs are THE defining groups of the word, and anti-Judaism/anti-Islam covers them both. Congratulations, for anyone who didn't know, you are *by definition* an anti-semite.

Sparkwidget:

"Look - be at least truthful enough to admit that Ancient Gnosticism was Anti-Judaism/Judaic/Jehovah/Yahweh/Yaldabaoth, even if your own modern individual "Way" may not be."

I want to add to my above comments that I do not think you really "get" Ancient Gnosticism if you think it was "anti-Jew, anti-YHVH", and this goes for many (perhaps most) modern Gnostics today. Most Sethian texts incorporate so many elements of normative Judaism (the myths, rituals, and structures are assumed knowledge) that to say that these texts were trying to distance themselves from Judaism is unfair - the Gnostics took great pains to *incorporate* Judaism into their presupposed Platonist worldview. Reinterpretation does *not* necessarily mean distance or hostility. Also, many Sethian texts are not referring to the Jewish God at all when they say Yaldabaoth, but instead are referring specifically to the Platonic Demiurge who originates in the Timaeus. If we move away from Sethians are start examining the Valentinians, the Demiurge is an intermediary figure, a construct-by-God that functions as a teaching machine trying to accomplish ends we cannot fathom (this is consistent with PKD's view). According to the Gnostic Basilides, the Demiurge becomes conscious of itself and ascends to become a glorious Aeon (Abraxas). With so many different takes on the character, I wonder how exactly you justify generalizing Ancient Gnostics as being anti-Judaism. In fact, I can't even think of a single text that calls the Demiurge "evil" but rather that he is ignorant and misguided, the "ruthlessly mechanical" Kosmos-spewing construct that Dick describes.

Of course, my perspective was developed over time by the professional study of Gnostic texts in the original language, and many modern Gnostics believe this to be proof of my lack of authority rather than as evidence of authority. For this reason (and others) I hardly call myself a Gnostic anymore - the word is increasingly associated with things that have nothing to do with classical Gnosticism. My opinions on Gnosticism therefore are not indicative of my modern individual "way" but of historical study. I do not ask that you give up your modern "way" but perhaps you ought to acknowledge from time to time that your view of Gnosticism is your own modern interpretation and stop pretending you are speaking about actual history.

Also, I am curious - Why does maligning the PTG take up so much of your blog space? Did you check out any other Gnostic forums? You'll find that the PTG is actually the most lenient of the bunch, and does not "excommunicate heretics" but bans problem users. There are Gnostic forums, like the one I directed you to, that ban users for violating the set dogmas of the founders (usually something like "Jesus was a mushroom doing pagan" or something like that). Perhaps if you stop harping on the PTG and spend some time with other forums you will see that we're not as much of a cabal of eeeevil orthodox archons as you seem to think.

Matrljani:

Sparkwidget, you wrote (brackets mine):

"THAT (Anti-Judaism) is the definition of anti-semitism."

NO. If that were so, then Anti-Christianity would be considered Anti-Semitism as well.

Islam is a Religion, not a race. I am opposed to Islam the Religion the same way the Federation in Star Trek is opposed to the Borg. Well, that's another whole issue... >:)

The "Official Definition" of anti-semitism is archonic, a 1984-esque form of Newspeak.

I oppose the Existence of the Modern State of Israel. As do at least some Orthodox Jews

http://www.nkusa.org/

"International Jews United Against Zionism". These guys wave placards with the Star of David in one of those big red "no" signs with the line thru it. they also carry placards reading "the answer is peaceful dismantling of the zionist state". Are These Orthodox Jews Anti-Semites?

Matrljani:

you also wrote " I do not think you really "get" Ancient Gnosticism if you think it was "anti-Jew, anti-YHVH" "I never said anti-jew. and neither did Kenoma-ru, btw.

Matrljani:

I will concede only one point - not all Gnostics considered the Old Testament God to be *that* bad, but not that *good* either. Fine.

They considered him ignorant. And therefore you could consider them to still be anti-Judaic because they were re-appraising the Holiness and Utter Goodness of the God of Judaism, downgrading his Holiness.

Basilides, one of my favourite Gnostics (wonder if he ever met or heard of any Buddhists or Hindus)- yes, he gives a very kind appraisal of Yaldaboath's future.Doesn't change the fact that he SUCKS. And that people who worship Yaldabaoth worship a DickHead

Sparkwidget:

"NO. If that were so, then Anti-Christianity would be considered Anti-Semitism as well."

No - Anti-Judaism and Anti-Islam as a package constitute anti-semitism because all semitic groups are contained within the two. Arabs are almost exclusively Islamic.

I fail to see how dismissing these religions is not a dismissal of the people who are identified with them. So you don't hate Jews or Muslims as long as they renounce their Judaism or Islam, which defines them? I'm not sure exactly how you compartmentalize the people to be separate from their identities.

Matrljani:

I don't even feel the need to answer this one! Are you so concerned about maintaining that "warm fuzzies" in your heart 24/7 that it has clouded your judgement in regards to no-brainer issues such as this?

I repeat- the official definition of "anti-semitism" where it encompasses an opposition to the religion of Judaism itself is an orwellian definition of anti-semitism.

I am opposed to the God of Abraham. The Idea that is the God of Abraham. The Meme. The Disease.

Matrljani:

Even Christian Sects that believe in the Ultimate Reconciliation of all Souls still believe in the God of Abraham, and consider Him as Good. Ideas such as this are past their use-by-date. They are ideological diseases and the believers are the sufferers.

Islam is HIV and Al Qaeda us AIDS

"oh but what about Sufis?" I don't care! Blah Blah Blah

Matrljani:

Would opposition to Stalinist Communism equal anti-Russianism?

Is there some magical amount of time that passes by where ideological diseases and the people they infect become so fused at the hip that any criticism of the disease is racism against the sufferer?

Matrljani:

If I said I hated the disease Alzheimer's because of how it destroys the sufferer's mind would I be being racist against the sufferer?

"Oh, but heaps of Christians and Muslims chose to believe in their religions, there are converts etc"

yeah? well if I said Heroin Addiction and Crystal Meth addiction was evil would I be being prejudiced against the sufferers who initially volitionally partook of the drugs and then consequently lost their minds?

Matrljani:

I am anti-Scientology. am I am racist against Tom Cruise?

Matrljani:

Is anti-Hinduism anti-Indianism? (btw I am not anti-Hinduism)

see? SEE?

you cannot win this argument. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE >:)

Matrljani:

Anti-Yahwehism/Allahism is not Anti-Semitic. I DARE you to say otherwise!

Sparkwidget:

"I don't even feel the need to answer this one! Are you so concerned about maintaining that "warm fuzzies" in your heart 24/7 that it has clouded your judgement in regards to no-brainer issues such as this?"

Since I have no brain, I admit defeat, Colin. You're right. Jews, Christians, and Muslims are a disease. They ought to be as great as you. I can't argue with the LIVING MASTER I suppose.

Note: at this point Spark bows out of the argument, and I received an email from him saying as such after I had posted the rest of these comments. Overrall, I think I tore him a new A-hole in this argument :)

Matrljani:

"Since I have no brain, I admit defeat, Colin. You're right. Jews, Christians, and Muslims are a disease. They ought to be as great as you. I can't argue with the LIVING MASTER I suppose."

NO- Judaism and Christianity and Islam are the diseases and their adherents are the sufferers. the sufferers are not the disease.

Moreover, certain "heretical" offshoots of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are at least partial cures :)

I'm not all that smart, you know - I mean the hardware of my brain that is. Math makes me cry. But I have put lots of software on my average-above average meat computer-brain, just as you have...

But then there is Inate Character. Your premium on respecting everyone's elses religious traditions means that despite being clearly learned,

I, however, revel in heaping shit on them. I don't hate anyone, I just hate ignorance, repression and Lies. I also hate weakness.

sadly, I consider you to have weakness. I dont hate you, I hate your weakness

Matrljani:

the essence of Gnosticism is the Will to Power of the ex-followers seeking to become less weak, to emancipate themselves.

Formerly, they were slaves. Now they are the Generation without a Kingdom.

The Druze Faith did the same thing with Islam. they escaped the Matrix of the Islamic World, and venerated Akhenaten, Pythagoras, Plato along with traditional Judaic prophets, whilst simultanouesly pretending to still be Muslims. They are STILL HERE.

They shook off the Disease of Islam *applauds*

Sufism half-shakes it off

Matrljani:

(following from my previous comment)

I should add, this is the essence of Gnosticism in the ancient context.

btw, the Druze believe in freaking reincarnation and make up a third of a population of modern Lebanon!

90% of the Druze are unintiated, 10% are initiated and 1% of the 10% are the utterly initiated. is going to devote a future post on this blog to Druze-envy)